Ali Noorani [00:00:15] This week, a Utah dreamer tells a story and discusses what’s next for his state.
Bernardo Castro [00:00:20] And I think that’s what a lot of the arguments are against reform is saying your pie, your slice of the pie is going to get smaller when in reality everyone’s pie gets bigger because more workers create more demands for other products. You have more opportunity to create businesses. And I think that’s what the talking point should be on the economic benefits of immigration reform and not on necessarily like model immigrants coming to the U.S.
Ali Noorani [00:00:50] From the National Immigration Forum, I’m Ali Noorani, and this is Only in America. For the next few episodes of Only in America, we’re traveling, via Zoom, around a state that isn’t often at the forefront of the immigration debate. But as we’re going to hear from our guests, Utah’s immigration experience has a lot to teach us. Take the Utah Compact of 2010. It’s one of the best examples of faith, business, law enforcement and community voices coming together to affirm a set of shared principles around the immigration debate, principles of dignity and humane policies for all. While Utah’s neighbors to the south and Arizona, were passing notoriously anti-immigrant and racist legislation – remember SB 10 70? The infamous Show Me Your Papers law – Utah’s communities were sending a different kind of message, one of welcome and opportunity rather than fear and hostility. It’s a message that still resonates across the state. A recent Deseret News poll found that more than half of Utahns support a permanent legislative solution for dreamers. But as always, with immigration, the story just isn’t that simple. Despite the public support for Dreamers, all four of Utah’s Republican congressmen recently voted against the American Dream and Promise Act, which would grant permanent protections to dreamers. So what’s the disconnect?
Underwriting [00:02:26] Support for the National Immigration Forum comes from the Carnegie Corporation of New York, supporting innovations in education, democratic engagement and strengthening international peace and security and from humanity united. When humanity is united, we can bring a powerful force for human dignity.
Ali Noorani [00:02:48] To get a better sense of how the immigration debate is playing out in the Beehive State, I reached out to one of our first ever Only in America guests, who talk to me about immigration in Utah way back in 2017, when I first talked to Bernardo Castro, he was a college student visiting D.C. to urge lawmakers to pass a permanent solution for dreamers.
Bernardo Castro [00:03:09] That kind of proves the point of friendship that you can develop with with people just when immigration status and discuss, you know, just like when you when you treat each other as people. You see that? Oh, yeah. This is my friend. We’re very similar. You know, we have similar interests. I always say that I grew up watching SpongeBob with all these guys. You know?
Ali Noorani [00:03:28] Now he’s an entrepreneur with a business degree and he’s still fighting for that solution. Reconnecting in 2021 reminded us just how much and how little has changed for dreamers like Bernardo in the past four years. Bernardo’s and entrepreneur Brigham Young University graduate and DACA recipient living in Utah. At four years old, he moved to small town Utah from Mexico with his family in 1995. He always knew he hadn’t been born in the U.S., but didn’t realize until he was a teenager how much that would impact his life. Growing up undocumented in a state with a relatively small Latino population, Bernado often experienced feelings of solation and embarrassment around his status. He saw classmates’ parents getting deported. He also saw how his Church helped build trust and unity across a small town’s immigrant and native born residents, and how things like the Utah Compact can reinforce this unity.
Ali Noorani [00:04:25] Bernardo, thank you so much for joining. I really, really appreciate it. We don’t have many return guests to the Only in America podcast, so you may be the first one or one of the very few. So glad to have you back.
Bernardo Castro [00:04:38] Thank you so much for having me again. Always a pleasure.
Ali Noorani [00:04:40] So let’s start at the beginning for you. What was your first memory of Utah?
Bernardo Castro [00:04:43] One of the earliest memories that I have is actually walking to Head Start to a kindergarten type situation with my mom and I. The sidewalk was so icy and we slipped and we fell. And I remember because we’re from southern Mexico and never snows there. And so that was something that was kind of new to us and a little foreign. But that’s one of my earliest memories of Utah was how unforgiving the ice and snow can be on the sidewalk in particular.
Ali Noorani [00:05:16] Must have been quite the change. I mean, how did your how did your parents adjust, not just to the ice, but to Utah and kind of the community?
Bernardo Castro [00:05:24] Yeah, I think Utah is very welcoming of hardworking individuals, and my parents fit right in. A lot of members of the church that we went to really took a stand and helped us get accommodated. And they found work really quickly, because when you’re someone that’s willing and able and is just hungry for work and a way to provide for their family, you can really find that here. And my parents fit right in.
Ali Noorani [00:05:49] And what year was this?
Bernardo Castro [00:05:51] Yeah, so we immigrated to the US at the end of 1995.
Ali Noorani [00:05:54] So back in 95 or just the late 90s, how big was the Latino population in Utah?
Bernardo Castro [00:06:02] It was pretty small, especially the part that I grew up in, in Hyrum. That’s kind of more rural. There was a big meat processing plant in Hyrum called Swit, and that attracted a lot of Latinos, the community in Hyrum in particular. But we were still few and far between, and we kind of got together. There was a lot of us that had the same faith, and so we went to church all together. But yeah, there wasn’t that many in Utah, especially northern Utah,
Ali Noorani [00:06:34] And then what was it like kind of growing up, going to elementary, junior high, high school?
Bernardo Castro [00:06:40] I always think that I had a pretty boring childhood. But in reality, when I look back, I realized that I was extremely lucky to have such a boring childhood because I didn’t know that I was part of this elaborate cat and mouse game that undocumented people play with the authorities. And in school I did really well. I got good grades, but I remember one time in particular in middle school. Where they called everybody down to a room with a Hispanic last names. It doesn’t matter who you were. Anybody that had a Hispanic sounding last name got called down. And the vice principal, he said, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but some of you might not return to parents today. What had happened was that Swift plant in Hyrum was raided by ICE in 2006. And I remember that was one of the times that I felt really scared and very confused as a kid. I didn’t know what was happening. I you remember that was the last day that I saw some of my friends because I imagine they must have gone home and not had anybody there. And I didn’t realize at the time, but I was so lucky that my parents weren’t working there. And that continued to allow me to move on with school and move on to high school and start college classes and graduate from community college and then go to BYU and graduate with a degree in business management. You know, I’m very fortunate and lucky to be where I’m at today, and kind of like Malcolm Gladwell in his book Outliers, he talks about how the tallest tree in the forest is the tallest because he comes from a hearty sea. You don’t know what rabbits and what lumberjacks that tree avoided as well. And sometimes I feel like like a tree, I guess, in that sense.
Ali Noorani [00:08:41] Well, if you don’t mind talking to me a little bit about those days in 2006. You know, what was what was the next day at school like when you went back to school?
Bernardo Castro [00:08:51] The sentiment was really just kind of weird because a lot of us that were Hispanic had kind of shared this traumatic experience together, and the community was still reeling from that. There was a lot of church help from different religious organizations, Catholic, LDS, to help people try to kind of get back in touch together. But yeah, so I don’t know. It felt very weird because we were I was one of the first times that I was signaled out because of my name and the color of my skin. Even though I wasn’t affected by that, I still was grouped in with everyone else that had similar traits.
Ali Noorani [00:09:38] And and I also imagine it must have been hard, because, like I said earlier, it’s the community wasn’t really large at that point. It wasn’t a large Hispanic community. So most of us still felt isolated.
Bernardo Castro [00:09:49] Yeah, certainly devastating, especially I think about everyone that maybe their dad worked there or their mom worked there. And then they suddenly became single parents and their child might have been born in the US, but all of a sudden they had a parent that was missing. This is very difficult.
Ali Noorani [00:10:05] At that point, did you know that you are undocumented?
Bernardo Castro [00:10:08] I noticed that my parents were concerned a little bit, but I had no reason to fear because my parents didn’t work there. I was concerned for my friends. And so the secret is cat and mouse game, like I told you, I kept going for us.
Ali Noorani [00:10:21] it was a kind of a cat and mouse game, kind of even within your family, too.
Bernardo Castro [00:10:25] Absolutely. And going to high school, taking driver’s ed in 2005, Utah implemented driving privilege cards for those that were undocumented. I knew that’s what I was going to get after I talked to my mom about driver’s ed. She said, you don’t have a social you only have an ITIN card, and this is what we’re able to get with that. And the first version of those driving privilege cards for undocumented people had a giant letter “P” for privilege in red on the cards. And I remember learning about Scarlet Letter in school and I’m like, man, this is my very own Scarlet Letter. And and I even brought my 2010 driving privilege cards. You can see here, the biggest, the biggest word on this card is privilege. Earlier versions, the ones that I had in high school had that big red key on the card that that easily identified you in any situation. And so I feel like getting a driver’s license is kind of like an American rite of passage for a lot of high schoolers. It’s like one of the steps to freedom, basically, where you can go and kind of govern yourself and go wherever you want to. And I was just really embarrassed and ashamed to show my friends what I had. And I never did that.
Ali Noorani [00:11:46] And if you ever had to show that card to an officer, the authorities?
Bernardo Castro [00:11:51] Yeah. So funny enough, in high school, I was invited to a friend’s party. We went and watched college football game on TV. And my mom told me to be back by a certain time. And I, I overstated a little bit, so I sped back home, and I got pulled over for speeding. And my my initial thoughts were, man, this is my last thing in the US. I’m going back to Mexico, and I was so terrified of what that meant. But when the officer took my car and ran everything, brought it back and me a speeding ticket, rightfully so, I guess. The only punishment I needed to fear was my mom’s getting home so late and with a speeding ticket. But I was terrified. I really was.
Ali Noorani [00:12:38] Yeah, but I just speaks to the importance of local law enforcement not enforcing immigration law, and that could have gone so many different ways.
Bernardo Castro [00:12:48] Yeah, absolutely. And it has for a lot of people, right? But I think something that we’ve talked about before is like the Utah Compact and how that is designed to strengthen communities and really leave the policing to federal agents because state policemen, state authorities should really focus on local issues. That’s where tax dollars are spent and helping out the community locally and letting federal agents do their job.
Ali Noorani [00:13:14] I don’t know. I feel like we should give you a business card now. Or you can have my job. You spoke to that very clearly. So tell me a little bit about the data while you’re talking, right? So between 2010 and 2018, the Hispanic community in Utah grew twenty five percent. So you just see this growth in the Hispanic community in the state. So as you’re kind of living through that growth, what is it how how do you feel like your community, your life, and the state has changed?
Bernardo Castro [00:13:42] My wife and I actually went to a churro place yesterday and it’s the first time we’ve heard of it. We got an Instagram ad and we’re like, we got to check this place out. And so we went and I was honestly surprised to see Hispanic people working the whole thing. And it felt nice because a lot of times there’s new startups, new businesses, and they’re not necessarily run by Latino people. But that’s something that I have seen changes a lot more Latino businesses going up. And that makes me very happy to see that, because in one way, having your own business helps you achieve the next level of economic prosperity. And I’ve seen that a lot with the Hispanic growth here. There’s a lot more Hispanic stores, a lot more Hispanic restaurants. You see a lot more Hispanic type events going on in the community. And yeah, I think it’s a good indicator of how well we’re doing.
Ali Noorani [00:14:39] And how do you see the rest of the community, in essence, the Anglo white community responding?
Bernardo Castro [00:14:45] I feel like with the last administration there was kind of this kind of growing sense of hostility a little bit. And that might be just the rhetoric at the national level that did that. But I think that for the most part, Utahans are very welcoming to hardworking people like we have talked about before. And there is a recognition of the impacts, the good impacts, that having Latinos in the community does for Utah.
Ali Noorani [00:15:16] And how about your friend network? I mean, how is that? Do you feel like as the state and the community is changing, how does your life and just kind of a day to day basis change? And I know that’s kind of a weird question, kind of covid-19, because our lives are just kind of like this Groundhog Day in some ways. How has your life changed?
Bernardo Castro [00:15:37] I feel like my life has changed for the better with having DACA and allowing people to kind of take a peek into my life and my different life experiences that I’ve had with the program and how even though, you know, I could be working a corporate job with them, I was for a year and a half, you know, right after college, we we’re on the same team. We were getting paid the same we had the same objectives that I had been undocumented. I basically am a documented because DACA is a permanent legal thing and why we need a reform and that kind of stuff. And for me, it’s helped me be more comfortable with who I am. Like I kind of mentioned in high school, I was ashamed of who I was because I knew that I would be singled out for who I was. I had experienced that in middle school already. But now I feel free to be who I am and help other people in finding their own identities and to not be ashamed whether you’re undocumented, you’re still valuable as a person, you’re still wanted here, and you’re still adding to our community and making it beautiful.
Ali Noorani [00:16:49] So as you shared your story over the last few years about being a DACA recipient and pushing for legislation, what are the reactions that you’ve gotten that have kind of surprised you?
Bernardo Castro [00:16:57] I remember I used to work at a cell place where I would help people with help choosing cell phones, basically. And one of my customers that I have worked with for a long time said, hey, I saw your story in Salt Lake Tribune or the Deseret News. And they’re like, I just want to let you know that I have a lot of empathy that creates just awareness of people that are out there like this. And I see that kind of cautiously because the model immigrant approach isn’t something that I necessarily want to push, right? Because everyone is valuable and everyone has contributions that they can do. And I don’t think that necessarily just because I have a college degree or because I’ve never gotten in trouble, I should be the only one to benefit from reform. I think there’s a lot of people that are wanting to contribute more fully to the economy and they should be given that chance.
Ali Noorani [00:17:50] Kind of goes back to that that rate in 1996, right? Those parents working in that Swift plant.
Bernardo Castro [00:17:59] Exactly they were just trying to provide for their kids, a lot of them citizen born children that were orphaned, basically, that lost a parent or maybe lost both parents, but they still had to remain here because they were minors or because they were born here. And that communication just was just lost and so much progress was lost because of that raid on the community. And I don’t really know how effective those workplace raids are in curbing illegal immigration. It doesn’t seem like it helps very much
Ali Noorani [00:18:32] Because, I mean, people are still coming and coming for work, right?
Bernardo Castro [00:18:35] That’s right. Any time you have a better life standard here, there’s always going to be people that are determined to make it to the US and provide for their family.
Ali Noorani [00:18:44] What’s your sense personally? But then also, what’s your sense of kind of how the community is understanding what’s happening at the border these days?
Bernardo Castro [00:18:51] I think with the change of administration, it makes a lot of people hopeful. I think with what’s happening at the border, it’s saddening, but from in a way we understand because a lot of us have been in the same situation. And just because you’ve been in the US and have been established for 20 plus years, et cetera, doesn’t mean you should lose sight of that. There’s people that are struggling and trying to be in your shoes. It’s something that is also cyclical, you know, we can’t lose sight of that. That is something that happens when there’s a change in administration, but it does make people hopeful with a more humane approach to immigration that this administration is taking.
Ali Noorani [00:19:35] And speaking of that, a couple of weeks ago, the House passed the Dream and Promise Act, and now the legislation is up in the Senate, as you’re seeing kind of yet another legislative debate about the DREAM Act, what does that how does that make you feel, kind of reading that news and kind of seeing the ups and downs of it?
Bernardo Castro [00:19:53] Yeah, it makes me feel like we’ve been here so many times. When I went to Washington and had a few meetings with lawmakers, it really surprised me how much consensus there was on that issue, saying: we’re with dreamers. We love dreamers from both sides of the aisle, but it was always those extras to the legislation. It’s almost like the dreamer part was like the sugar to make the medicine go down. And yeah, I just hope that we’re able to get some good traction on this and things pass, finally. I feel like in Washington there’s a lot of arguments that are kind of Zero-Sum on immigration that if we legalize a certain population, another population will be displaced from work or from those jobs, the short term displacement, things like that. But I think if we take a look at the economics of the United States, we’ve seen huge waves of immigration come through and short term job displacement be very low and then more jobs being created. One of the books that I read at BYU for an economics class is Naked Economics by Charles Weeble. And that books changed my perspective on a lot of things because he said new workers must spend their earnings elsewhere in the economy, creating new demand for other products. The economic pie gets bigger. It’s not merely resliced. And I think that’s what a lot of the arguments are against reform is saying your pie, your slice of the pie, is going to get smaller, when in reality, everyone’s pie gets bigger because more workers create more demands for other products. You have more opportunity to create businesses. And I think that’s what the talking point should be on the economic benefits of passing immigration reform and not on necessarily like model immigrants coming to the US.
Ali Noorani [00:21:45] I completely agree, and what’s the role of culture, and frankly, of faith in making that argument? May not be economic, but a lot for a lot of people, they also think like their cultural slice of America is going to get smaller, if you will. So what’s the role of the church and kind of helping people understand why immigration is a net positive?
Bernardo Castro [00:22:03] I think the church is kind of like the culture that we’re trying to establish. And the teachings are everyone is a son or a daughter of God. And because of that, you have innate, eternal value on your soul. And so far, I feel like in the church in particular, it’s been an openness to learning more about other people’s cultures, especially. That’s something that we see a lot in missionary work and how these young men and young women go to different parts of the whole world and they learn to love these people and come back and have a soft spot in their heart for them because they’ve seen the struggles, they’ve lived with them and they’re like family to them. And so I think, for the church in particular, it’s a good thing that we’re having more and more people join and we’re coming more culturally aware of what’s out there.
Ali Noorani [00:22:59] I mean, it’s just such an important institution and helping people understand kind of changes and and be able to ask the tough questions, but also be able to to listen to answers that they may not trust from somebody else.
Bernardo Castro [00:23:13] That’s right. Yeah. It helps build trust in the community. When it comes from someone who is genuine and people know and trust them.
Ali Noorani [00:23:23] There’s been kind of a tough year for for everybody with covid-19. But you’re telling me that you and your wife got something pretty exciting over the last year or so. Tell me tell us a little bit about kind of that venture, if you don’t mind.
Bernardo Castro [00:23:35] Absolutely. So I think there has never been a better time to start a business. And I say that because I really feel like America is still the land of opportunity. If you’re willing to put into work, to put into sacrifice, you can really get out of it whatever you want. You can change your entire lifestyle if you want to. For my wife and I, we saw a need to provide people with more options when it comes to clothing. And that’s something that we decided to do. And we wanted to always make it body representation important to us in our clothing line. And so we always shoot with people that are of color, people that are a little bit more curvy, just representation is important to us and we want to show that in America anyone can make it.
Ali Noorani [00:24:25] What’s the name of the company?
Bernardo Castro [00:24:27] It’s called Shop Tabby, it’s named after my wife.
Ali Noorani [00:24:30] Oh, really? And the what’s the URL?
Bernardo Castro [00:24:34] It’s www.shoptabby.com
Ali Noorani [00:24:38] Very good. So, you know I had to drag that marketing out of you, man. I mean, come on. So let’s say we’re having this conversation in a year and the DREAM Act is passed. You know, what do you think is different in Utah?
Bernardo Castro [00:24:55] I think Utah changes because, so I was reading some estimates that said the eligible population for the Dream and Promise Act is like two to four and a half million, right? I just think about how
Ali Noorani [00:25:09] across the country
Bernardo Castro [00:25:11] Across the country and I think about how that will impact every single state in terms of sales tax and revenue and things like that. People will just have a lot more buying power. And I think about the crazy economic growth Utah has had and how that will just continue to go up if the DREAM Act passes. And that makes me excited because I feel like a lot of people have benefited and profited off that growth here. And I can see that happening even more if the Dream and Promise Act is passed.
Ali Noorani [00:25:45] Yeah, well, I hope we have that conversation in Utah over Churros.
Bernardo Castro [00:25:51] Let’s do it!
Ali Noorani [00:25:52] So, you know, this is a little bit unfair because, you know, you’ve gotten this question before. But, you know, the name of the podcast is Only in America. So, you still got to answer the question just to finish the sentence. Only in America…
Bernardo Castro [00:26:06] Only in America can you celebrate the Fourth of July with carne asada, ceviche and some churros if you want to.
Ali Noorani [00:26:14] That’s fantastic. Bernardo, thank you so much. It’s great to see you again. And thank you very much for sharing your story, because, you know, I don’t know if I’ve told you this, but I strongly believe that when leaders in the community like yourself are sharing, your story ,it takes a level of courage and determination that those of us who are not immigrants, even if we care about you and the community and the issues, we never have to display that level of courage. So I just really want to say thank you, man. And it’s just great to great to know you. Great to talk again.
Bernardo Castro [00:26:43] Thank you, Ali. It’s always a pleasure.
Ali Noorani [00:26:59] Bernardo Castro is a DACA recpient and entrepreneur living in Utah. You can learn more about Bernado and how you can take action to support Dreamers at our website: ImmigrationForum.org/podcast. If you like what you hear, subscribe to Only in America, wherever you’re listening to this episode. And please leave us a review. Only in America is produced and edited by Katie Lutz, Joanna Taylor and Becka Wall. Our artwork and graphics are designed by Karla Leyja. Me, I’m Ali Noorani, and I will talk to you next week.